Dear Cordoba, On the face of it, it would appear that Shishya's talking about incarnation of Allah is meaningless. However, I think it is believed by many Muslims that they will see Allah on judgement day (Quran 75:23). If this is true, then it will amount to an incarnation of Allah and Shishya would have a relevant point. Please clarify.
Originally Posted by Cordoba
The rules of the Hereafter are different, as there it is an eternal life
For heaven or hell to be of relevance for humans, the humans need to in some way continue to be themselves in heaven or hell. Otherwise he or she who is enjoying or suffering would not be the same person who lived on earth and deserved the judgement. The rules of heaven/hell may be different but not to the extent that a person is not able to relate the rules of earth and heaven/hell. If he is unable to do so, then who is being rewarded or punished? The Quran clearly tells us the consequences of following/not following Allah's instructions. Therefore certainly a portion of us which makes us aware of ourselves as we were on earth would have to be present in heaven/hell. If we are able to see Allah in heaven, then who has seen Allah but we? Thus, there is no denying the fact that Allah is amenable to incarnate (make Himself seen) at least in heaven. Your contention that the laws of the “hereafter” are different from the laws of “here” should not be an attempt to invalidate logic when considering matters of the “hereafter”.
Also, it cannot be an eternal life in heaven. That which is eternal does not have a beginning or end. The "hereafter" begins only after the "here". So another word has to be coined for that which, though has a beginning, does not have an end!
Apart from the point I made in post no. 16 where I said Allah presenting Himself to be seen by believers in heaven is an example of Allah incarnating, there is also the example of Allah speaking to Moses here on earth. Here too, if Allah has made Himself perceivable by man through man's senses, it also amounts to Allah incarnating Himself. I got a reply that the rules of heaven are different from the rules of earth. Conceded. But can it be denied that both earth and heaven/hell (if they exist) are part of existence? Thus, as I see it, Allah incarnating is a fact that is established in the Quran itself.
If you are still wondering, why would God choose not to appear in this life, i'll mention for you a story which happened long time a go between Allah and the famous prophet of Allah, Moses.
[143] When Musa came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, he said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon Thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); but look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust, and Musa fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (Quran 7:143)
Moses didn't know that God is so great that we can't handle seeing him with our current limited senses.
In this Quranic verse, it is clear that Allah spoke to Moses. Only, Moses was in no position to see Allah. In another time and another place a disciple of God (Krishna) wanted to see Him. It was only after the disciple (Arjuna) was given the boon of 'cosmic vision' that he was able to see Krishna. In the Quran it says that Moses heard Allah on earth and in the hereafter believers can also see Allah. Incarnation is all about Allah/Krishna creating the conditions so that man can perceive Him. Why should Allah be restricted to creating the conditions only in heaven? Does it say in the Quran that Allah would not be able to create the conditions on earth? The Hindu scriptures mention the creation of such conditions on earth itself so that God can be perceived. Since earth and heaven are all part of existence, incarnation is a reality according to both the Quran and Hindu scriptures.
May you explain the meaning of "incarnation" or how do you define incarnation so I may not misunderstand your point.
Incarnation, simply put, is the appearance of God, in whatever form (or formless), in the midst of human activities and involving in human activities. That is, God becomes a participant (not merely an observer) in the drama of human life.
Contradicting to your points, I don't think that seeing God on the day of judgement refer to the incarnation in anyway. It is more likely that God appears to the believers rather than incarnating himself to be seen.
God “appearing” and God “incarnating” are synonyms.
For example, say that you want to meet somebody and he is in the house and you are waiting outside. Suddenly, he came out. would you say that he incarnate himself, or would you say that he appeared or came out. For the second part which is about God's talk to Moses, I don't see how that relate to incarnation. for example, let's say that you make a phone call, would you say that the somebody you called incarnate himself or he just he use his voice to speak to you.
We are used to use the word “incarnate” only vis-à-vis God and therefore it is not said of a person simply coming out of his house or making a phone call.
That's unreasonable stretch to the meaning of incarnation.
I was not unreasonably stretching the meaning of incarnation – I was only implying the possibilities of the word.
Finally, for the part about the heaven, hell and earth. Don't you think that life and death is a part of existence. Even though they have different world and rules.
Yes, everything is a part of existence, including God. If you say God is not part of existence, you are only saying He does not exist!
Islam reject the idea that Jesus, Krishna, etc are God incarnation.
Muslims reject the idea that Jesus, Krishna etc are God's incarnation because Islam teaches that God does not incarnate. Or so it would seem. Actually, Islam clearly says that God has appeared before humans and will appear again in the future. While Islam appears to have underplayed God's appearances, Hinduism has highlighted such appearances and Hindu scriptures have unfolded extensive biographies of God's appearances, calling it incarnation. Quran has mentioned the appearances only in passing. Hindu scriptures have made His appearances their mainstay.
